How did you get involved in MMA?
I’m a fan of the martial arts going back to when I was a teenager. I started out wrestling in high school. I started doing chinese martial arts out of high school. I started boxing. When I was at the boxing gym I ran into a lot of the muay thai fighters. Having a background in martial arts I took a big interest in that. I started learning muay thai. Over the next ten years I became a muay thai trainer. I wasn’t that good at fighting so I had to go where my talent was. I did that for about ten years. I trained thai fighters who were coming over in the early 80’s to fight at the Jet Center over in California. I opened up the first muay thai gym in Las Vegas then I had kids and training takes a lot of time.
Trainers don’t get enough credit for what they do. They work their butts off getting these guys ready for the fights. Sometimes that have 3 or 4 guys they have to get ready at the same time. It’s a real beatdown and they deserve a lot of credit. I had kids at the time and I had to make a choice and I chose my family. I still wanted to stay involved so I thought how can I be involved with the sport without having to spend that much time into it. I looked into officiating and went to the Athletic Commission and asked them what I needed to do to be a referee and I followed their direction. I started officiating amateur boxing, muay thai, or anything else I could do. I’ve done everything except sumo wrestling (laughs). Then MMA came to town in 2002 when the Fertitta bought the UFC and that was my big break.
Didn’t John McCarthy mentor you?
Oh yeah, he mentored all of us. He’s the first. We can only go by what we see in the past. If you want to learn an art you go back to the history of it and we had to go to the history of reffing and John had laid all of the ground work. I tweaked it a little. Everyone has their own style but he’s definitely the main trunk of the whole tree.
Which states are you licensed in?
I primarily work here in Vegas. I have a full-time job so I have to pick and choose my traveling wisely. I’ve worked in California, Montreal, England. Back in the day I was in Japan for kickboxing. I’ve also been to Thailand. When you travel you burn alot of your vacation time so I try to limit the traveling. Luckily I live in the fight capitol of the world so when they have an event here I get it.
What do you do full-time?
I’m a firefighter here in Las Vegas.
Are they flexible with you so you can ref events?
Because of scheduling we work 24 on, 24 off, the same as the George Strait song goes. Then of course if you want an extra day off you take a vacation day. That’s pretty much how it goes across the country with most fire departments. I’m lucky because most of the events are on my days off and if they aren’t I use vacation time.
Your family is pretty involved with MMA aren’t they?
My wife is a timekeeper for the local amatuer program. My oldest son runs sanctioning. When they have an event here he makes sure they have insurance. Here in Navada we have an awesome program where we make sure the amateur fighers have insurance and the fights get stopped a whole lot quicker than the guys on TV.
The fans have to understand the guys on TV are A Class fighters. They make their money fighting. It’s how they provide for their family. It’s a full time job. But it’s got to start somewhere and it’s the kids who are inspired by those guys they see on TV. When they go to the gym and learn some stuff and then take a fight and take some shots that don’t have an answer for you have to step in and stop it. Then you have a construction worker who is a weekend warrior that trains a couple of hours a week and he wants to give it a shot, you know you have class A, B, C, and D fighters. As you move through the ranks and try to move up into the A Class because you want to get paid.
What’s the hardest part of being a referee?
For me it’s hard not associating with the fighters. I came from that background so it’s hard not talking with the trainers and fighters and mingling with them or having dinner with them. But as a professional I don’t want to be seen having dinner with a fighter I just reffed last week or someone who may be fighting the next week. It looks bad and the fans could get the wrong impression. You have to be careful with what you do?
Have you ever had a fighter thank you for stopping a fight?
Not at the level we see on TV. Those are some proud fighters. When I go into the locker room and tell them what I expect 9 out of 10 of them tell me they can take a lot of punishment don’t stop the fight too early. They tell me that they like to do and I tell them if where I am coming from. I tell them if they commit a foul I’ll take a point. I’m very specific with the fouls how they work and the priority of the foul but at an A level when I stop the fight they know they’ve lost. And at that level they need to know they lost. But at the C and D level they do say “thanks it was harder then I thought it was”. You get it both ways at that level.
But at the A level they all train full-time. They get punched in the face for a living. Their income depends on you not stopping the fight too early. I’ve been criticized for letting fights go too long. I let them go right to the point where the winner knows they won and the loser knows they lost. At that level there needs to be a winner with no controversy. I’ve never had anyone seriously injured. They get cut up and scratched but that’s how it goes.
It’s a thankless job. But I made up my mind a long time ago I’m not going to be anyone’s hero out there officiating. I’m not going to make everyone happy. I’m not there to make people happy. I’m there to make sure the fans get to see the fight they paid to see. They are watching a fight I’m there to look for fouls. If a foul gets committed I have to decide how it affects the fight. I may have to take a point and give a guy an advantage because he just lost advantage because he got fouled either intentionally or accidently.
There is actually an intentional unintentional foul. For instance, if you knee a guy who is on the ground. You don’t do it on purpose and pop him in the head but they get excited and without thinking pop them in the face. But have to decide how that affects the fight. Should someone have to continue after getting smashed in the face with a knee while he’s on the ground? It’s illegal. How hard do you address it? Do you take his position away? Do you give him a chance to recover and restart the fight? Do you go all the way and take a point?
It’s not a popular job. The MMA fans are pretty good but you don’t want to admit your fighter just commited a foul and now he’s penalized it pisses people off.
Yves Lavigne told me it’s a lonely job.
It is. We don’t get to hang out or go to the after partys. I’d like to do all the things the fans get to do. It would be nice to go have coffee with Rashad and go hang out with them at the nighclub but we just don’t do it.
What do you remember about your UFC debut at UFC 43?
I had done a lot of MMA fights by then so I was comfortable. There are a lot of smaller shows I had done and by the time I had got there I had worked with Big John a lot and that will take you a long way right there. I watched a gazillion tapes. I had also taken a liking to certain styles coming out of Canada and certain styles coming out of Japan. I took the style Big John gave me and I put it all together into my style.
I brought the standup to America. I had seen it in Canada and when they get stalled on the ground they stood them up. I liked the concept. At the time they weren’t doing that in the UFC. I suggested it and it was okayed. I remember the first figther I told I would stand up if there was nothing going on the ground went to Big John and told him “Hey this Mazzagatti guy told me he’s going to stand me up” Big John came and told me and I said good. But I didn’t have to stand them up. It just goes to show you these guys do police themselves.
We aren’t seeing one dimensional guys anymore. Now we are seeing true MMA fighters. We are now seeing guys who can do it all. It’s amazing.
Did you enjoy reffing the fights on The Ultimate Fighter show?
I’m grateful for everything I got. I enjoy reffing. I did it for free for ten years. Now I’m making a little money and I get to be on TV. I’ve accomplished more than I ever thought.
Is it different reffing in an empty gym compared to the huge sold out arenas?
Not really that’s where I started, in the gym. I get guys calling me asking where they can go to be a ref. I tell them to go to your local gym ask the guys if you can get in and call fouls as they roll around. You learn how to ball up and tell guys not to hit in the back of the head. It helps them because they get used to a third man in there. The third man can make or break the fight. The fighter has to learn how to work around the ref. We see it all the time. You get a ref who will tell you to get your toes out of the fence some refs call things that others won’t. Each has their own style.
What did you think when you saw Junie Browning jumped the cage when Efrain Escudero fought Shane Nelson?
It’s entertainment man. He did something that made him memorable. When I was a kid I hate Muhammed Ali but I always knew when he was fighting. I used to tell my guys if they you or hate you they’ll pay to see you.
These guys are entertainers. We’ve seen lots of champions that you wouldn’t pay to see but then we see guys who aren’t even in the top ten but he might be a badass and you enjoy their antics in and out of the cage. My favorite fighters are not necessarily champions. They have a great personality and they bring it in and out of the cage.
I’m going to ask you about some of the big fights you’ve officiated.
What are your thoughts on the Rashad Evans Forrest Griffin fight last December?
It was awesome, a highlight of my career. You have to love them both. We heard back in the day that the show was producing nobodys and they wouldn’t amount to anything. Now everyone who has been in the top two or three in those shows has done well in the sport. Some are knocking on the door of a title, some have held the title and some have kept us entertained.
Look at Kenny Florian, he’s come along way. He’s a jiu jitsu guy. His striking is fantastic. Matt Hamill, look how he’s evolved. He was just a wrestler now his striking is coming together. He’s up there with the best of them. It’s constantly evolving. I can’t imagine what the next generation is going to bring.
We have karate now, you have to know jits, you have to wrestle, you have to box, you have to know muay thai. Now karate is back. To say you are karate and fight with muay thai is one thing. But when you beat someone with karate that’s bad ass. And that’s what he’s doing. I’m not going to mention any names but everyone knows who I’m talking about. That’s the kind of stuff I like to watch on youtube.
What about Anthony Johnson and Kevin Burns? Didn’t you apologize to Johnson
Absolutley. We aren’t perfect. We can’t sit back in a lazy boy and decide which call to make after we see a replay. I had a split second to make a call and I made it. If I had a camera angle and a different position I would’ve seen the finger go halfway in the eye. I just didn’t see it in the two seconds I had to make the call. It sucked for Anthony. I saw the replay and as soon as I saw it I felt really bad. I can man up and apologize. It was a bad call and one of those losses I felt responsible for. But Anthony manned up and said he was going to go back to the gym and work hard and kick ass and that’s exactly what he’s done. God Bless him.
What about the Babalu-David Heath fight when Babalu decided not to release the submission at the end of the fight?
That’s what he decided to do. It was no fault of mine. It crossed my mind should I punch him in the face to make him let go? I probably would’ve got my ass kicked. He let his emotions get away from him. He admitted it on TV. Unfortunatley it’s one of the rules, you have to obey the ref at all times. It wasn’t my call but after they watched the replay everyone was pissed off. I bet he was too. Look what it cost him.
Did you take it personally when Brock Lesnar asked that you nor officiate his fight with Couture?
Not at all. These guys have to come in with as little as possible on their shoulders. I don’t want him to worry about me jumping in and doing my job. If that’s how he wants it then I’m fine with it. I enjoyed watching the fight cageside like everyone else. When I’m in there Iu’m not watching the fight I’m reffing it. When I get home I go back and watch it to see what happened.
Lesnar was upset about the point taken away in the fight against Mir.
It was a good call. We talked about it back in the back. It wasn’t popular. I’ve taken a lot of points for back of the head strikes in high profile fights. It wasn’t anything new. The guys start policing themselves.
You see guys go out of their way not to hit in the back of the heads now. Guys go out of their way to not grab the cage because they’ll get docked a point. Herb has had a good reputation for taking points for guys grabbing the cage and he’s cleaned it up a lot. Guys aren’t willing to grab the cage now. We’ve also got a lot of clarification of what back of the head is. It’s those two backstraps that go up your spine and onto the top of the spine. If you hit on the top the head it’s legal. As long as the guy doesn’t duck his head down and you start catching him in the back of the head. We tell them in the backthat as long as they are hitting the ear still it’s good. You can go behind the ear you just can’t leave the ear and go behind the head.
What are your thoughts on the GSP-BJ Penn vaseline controversy?
A couple of years ago Big John and some others started talking about checking out the guys before they got in the ring. As the sport evolved we realized some of the guys were using substances to make themselves slippery so we actually started stood cageside without gloves and check behind their ears, grab their necks, their armpits and their thighs. One time another ref grabbed a guys tape he had around his ankles and vaseline came out. If a guy would’ve got a heel hook they would’ve slipped right out.
We make sure they clip their fingernails like we asked them to in the back. They have to have their cup and mouthpiece. The inspectors here in Nevada who wear the maroon jackets, I think they wear black in California. They are ring inspectors and they make sure that the guys aren’t drinking sports enhancing drinks in between rounds or they don’t grease the guys. They can have it around the eyebrows, cheeks, and nose. I guess someone else decided to put it somewhere else. It’s part of the game. The inspectors caught it and they tried to wipe it off with a towel but I don’t think that does that much good. I can tell you this whoever did it is going to be in trouble.
I was a trainer. Trainers are always looking for an advantage for their fighters. We just had a high profile match here in Vegas where a trainer tried to slip a cast like material in to his handwrap. It’s been going on for years. I remember back in Ali’s day when he fought Frazier he came in and he was about knocked out and Angelo Dundee ripped his glove open so he got time to change gloves.
It’s funny if you lose mouthpieces and a fighter gets three minutes to find it and put it back in. Losing your mouthpiece is a foul. We tell them in the back the mouthpiece is your responsibility. If you lose it it’s a foul. I tell the guys in the back if you knock their mouthpiece out as long as you don’t give them a null in the action he’s got to work himself through whatever got him on the ground and knocked his mouthpiece out. The fighter who is the aggressor has to back up a few steps and let him put the mouthpiece back in. That’s a null in the action, time out, boom, put it back in. A good ref won’t stop it when there is a flurry or an exchange and try to put it in. It shouldn’t affect the fight.
One last question, when are you going to bring the mustache back?
I am thinking after winter, with snowboarding and winter sports. All the water gets attracted to it. A mustache is a lot of weight on your shoulders.
Would you bring it back for a big event like UFC 100?
Well maybe if I can get a spot on That 70’s Show I’ll think about it.
Anything else you’d like to say to the fans?
Enjoy the fights. We’re letting the fighters shine and staying the hell out of the way.
